An Interview with Rodge Glass
by Dee Rimbaud (April-June 2005)
Dee - I have to say, when I heard that you worked as Alasdair Gray's
assistant I felt a pang of jealousy. As a writer and artist, and as a huge
fan of Gray's work, I couldn't think of a better job really. I'm assuming
it's paid work too, or is that a presumption?
Rodge - You presume right. My work for Alasdair is paid, and very well too.
He is a socialist not just in his writings but also in his work - Alasdair
has upped my pay twice in the last three years in line with his own pay. At
times, it has been essential to the support of my own writing career, as I
have worked for Alasdair since 2002 but only got signed up as a novelist in
2004.
Dee- Tell me, how the hell did you land such a tasty job?
Rodge - I was a fan of his work before we met, and I freely admit forcing myself upon Alasdair - first when he walked into a Glasgow pub when I was a barman there, then on the Glasgow University Creative Writing course a couple of years later. By chance he was employed there the year I was accepted for the MPhil they ran, and I kicked and screamed until they let me have him as a tutor. So our working relationship began with him assessing my early, often pretty poor short stories. Then early chapters of what became my first novel. When he needed a secretary (Alasdair doesn't use computers, cannot type and likes to dictate work) he asked a friend of mine to do it. She was too busy to be his part-time assistant, but I was keen. She suggested it to him, he said yes, and there I was. A student and assistant at the same time. So I crowbarred my way into the job - but, three years later, I think I've proved myself!
Dee - And, is the work as tasty as I'm imagining? Can you tell me a bit about what the work entails.
Rodge - To start with it was quite mundane stuff, and sometimes still is - lots of tidying, typing of letters, that kind of thing. But in time Alasdair began to dictate fiction to me, occasionally sending me off to do research, sometimes talking new pieces off the top of his head (very slowly) while I sat with fingers above the keys, waiting. I have now worked for him through four books: How We Should Rule Ourselves, The Ends Of Our Tethers, A Life In Pictures (forthcoming) and Three Men In Love (forthcoming), and have learnt a great deal about writing through the process. I've also searched out rare paintings and put all his old plays up on his website. Sometimes I drive Alasdair around, take him to see friends, and liase with publicity and editing departments who publish his books, arranging interviews, events, readings etc. It's rarely dull. Alasdair is perfectly mad - a unique human being.
Dee - I understand you’re working on Alasdair’s biography at the moment. You’re probably perfectly placed to do so. I assume you approached Alasdair with the idea of writing his biography. Was he resistant to the idea?
Rodge - Actually, no. I thought he might be though. Alasdair has always
said he wanted to write his own autobiography - and any fan of his writing
will know that there is a lot of autobiography in his fiction he wanted to
draw on, so it would make sense. He may yet write a book of his own looking
at his own life, but I think there is a lot to be said for an outside perspective. Also, Alasdair cheerfully says he may not live to write an autobiography. He turned seventy recently, has already suffered one heart attack, and is working (as well as at the Oran Mor mural) on three books currently. There will be no time for him to start it in the next few years. We all hope he will have many fruitful, happy years ahead of him, but don't assume it.
We have a clear understanding about this project - Alasdair has given me
complete freedom to work as I please, on the condition that should he ever
want to do a book of his own, he can have access to the research I've done
for this one. Quotes, dates, places, that kind of thing. It's been a long
old life of his, and I don't know if he can be bothered with all the donkey
work! I don't mind though. That's what I'm here for. And our arrangement
means I am free to be critical where I think it appropriate. He has
promised not to sue me!
Dee - How far into it are you now?
Rodge – I've been negotiating with a couple of publishers over the last
couple of months, so have done a proposal of about 50 pages for them, in
return for the promise of money to write it with. I've given them a couple
of chapters and a lengthy promise to write some more! I'm supposed to be
concentrating on my second novel at the moment, but the biography is
developing already, whether I want it to or not, and I have to go with where
my mind is at. So it is very much underway. Because I work with Alasdair
regularly, this book is often on my mind. Ideas for it intrude on my
sleeping hours.
Dee - Do you have a title in mind?
Rodge - This book isn't going to be a straight biography. Most of those
bore me - lots of dates and facts, not much soul. I want to get Alasdair's
personality onto the page for future generations - Alasdair suggested using
Boswell's infamous biography of Samuel Johnson as a partial template -
including myself in the story, making us characters, keeping it entertaining. I think that's a great idea. I could do an academic biography with three chapters on every book and painting he's ever done, but that doesn't appeal to me. Anyway, Alasdair's next book, ‘A Life In Pictures’, is going to include some of that stuff with regard to his artwork; there's no point me doing it in too much detail. So...the title for this has to incorporate a straight biography and also this personal, unusual angle. Alasdair came up with a title himself, ‘Working With Alasdair Gray’ - but it is a straight biography too, so I thought ‘Working With Alasdair Gray: A Secretary's Biography’ - you know, keeping me in my place! But I'm not entirely happy with that yet. So it's, as they say, subject to change.
Dee - When would you anticipate publication?
Rodge - Again, it depends. This is a big project - so it'll be a couple of
years before it surfaces. I want to get it right, and have a second novel
to write too. Also, I will be in my usual secretarial role with Alasdair
throughout the process, so it's going to take a while. Dependent on which
publisher we go with, it should appear in late 2007 or early 2008.
Dee - The two central ‘books’ in Alasdair’s first novel, ‘Lanark’ come across as autobiographical. My mother, who was at art school with Alasdair, recognised some of the people in the book, despite the employment of name changes. I imagine many of Alasdair’s fans will be curious to know exactly how autobiographical the central books of Lanark were. Are you going to reveal this in your biography.
Rodge - The biography will look into some of these things, though perhaps
not down to every last character in all his books. Just the relevant ones! It is no secret that the two 'Thaw' sections of Lanark are strongly
autobiographical - right down to the first mural Thaw does in the church,
and the talks he gets from his father - Alasdair's own father is still a
massive influence on him today. With regard to specific characters,
Alasdair is more forthcoming about some names than others, but it's pretty
clear that all his characters are (largely) based on one of three things:
him, someone he has known, or a composite of more than one person he has
known. Friends, family and lovers all make an appearence somewhere. It's
important to remember that Lanark was written over a period of 25 years -
the earliest Thaw sections being written in the early 1950's when Alasdair
was at Art School. So the characters that survived 25 years worth of
redrafting were all important people in his life.
Dee - Are we going to find out who the real Kate Caldwell was, for example?
Rodge - That one you might have to wait for, I'm afraid. Gray has his reasons for keeping certain things quiet - it is my job to find them out! Why do you
want to know about Kate Caldwell - have you got a theory? Pass it on!
Dee - In the two other books of Lanark, although not obviously autobiographical, one is led to suspect that such strong characters as Sludden, Lord Monboddo and Rima might be drawn from 'real life', even if they are composite characters. Is there any truth in this suspicion?
Rodge - Yes, as I say, most are made up from people in Alasdair's life - this goes through all his books. Mavis Belfrage, for example, is based strongly on
his first wife, Inge. There is also some of her in Rima. As for Sludden, he
is a very real, single human being who always got the girl! I don't know yet
about Lord Monboddo. Alasdair claims to have little imagination - this is
why he is most proud of the character, Jock McLeish, in 1982 Janine. It is
nothing like him and not really like anyone he knows. It is the exception
that proves the rule.
Dee - Quite a number of years ago I heard that a film script of ‘Lanark’ was in development. Since then I’ve heard nothing more. Is this project still going ahead? If so, when are we likely to see ‘Lanark’ hit the silver screen?
Rodge - Yes, this film idea has been knocking around for a long time, but it
seems to be back in limbo now - Alasdair thinks it will never be made. In
1985 he wrote two thirds of a film script with director Sandy Johnson,
working also with producer Ian Brown. This was difficult to get into
production for many reasons, but partly for the same reason Gray initially
had problems getting Lanark published as one single book - large companies
wanted to split it up into smaller, more easily-digestible pieces. Though
Lanark is not happening, there is a possibility that Poor Things will be
made into a film, again with Ian Brown on the project. However, this too
has been almost-happening for a long time, and has been delayed yet again
recently. It is supposed to feature Robert Carlyle, Jim Broadbent and
Helena Bonham Carter, all of whom have agreed to the idea - and was supposed to start filming this year - but finance keeps getting in the way. Still
hopeful though!
Dee - Earlier you mentioned the forthcoming ‘A Life In Pictures’. Will the book, as the title suggests, catalogue Alasdair’s artwork? If so, are we looking at a comprehensive retrospective... or what?
Rodge - Yes, the book will catalogue Alasdair's artwork, all the way from
childhood up to the present day - landscapes, murals, portraits, everything.
He is also going to be adding some autobiographical information too as
explanation for what he was doing in his life at the time of the work,
inspirations, everything you'd hope for in a book with that title. It's
going to include book covers, poster art, rare work, his most well known
paintings too. No-one has seen fit to write a book about Alasdair's art, so
he's doing one himself.
Dee - Have you considered organising a retrospective exhibition of Alasdair’s artwork to coincide with the launch of the book? And, when exactly (or approximately) will ‘A Life In Pictures’ be published?
Rodge - We are hoping something like the exhibition you suggest will be
organised, not just for the release of the book, but anyway. Critics and
governmental organisations find it very difficult to understand that someone
can be multi-talented - we like people to fit into nice, neat boxes - and
because of Alasdair's literary success, his artwork has often suffered. The
fact that no-one has written this book yet (the artist is now 70) is, as
Alasdair says, "proof it is not highly valued by many powerful people." ‘A
Life In Pictures’ will hopefully be out in 2006/7. At the moment it is in
the planning stages. Perhaps with luck and determination there will be a
full exhibition to go with it. We'll see.
Dee - More immediately, of course, you’ve got the launch of your own novel, ‘No Fireworks’ to look forward to. Could you tell me a little bit about it?
Rodge - ‘No Fireworks’ is a story about the choice between believing in something flawed and believing in nothing at all. It takes in 8 days in the life of Abraham Stone, 61-year old, three-times divorced asthmatic history teacher who meant to do a lot in his lifetime but never quite got round to it. On the opening page, his mother dies. Every day after her death he receives a letter from her, telling him to pull himself together, telling him his real family history, warning of things to come. It tackles issues of politics, sex, religion and love.
Dee - Man in his 60’s, asthmatic, divorced, teacher... sounds not dissimilar to Alasdair Gray himself. Just an observation, but is there anything in it, or have I got the wrong end of the stick?
Rodge - Ha ha! I see. Well, Abe is English, he has been divorced three times, teaches history, has a preoccupation with the wives of Henry VIII, is Jewish but is curious about Jesus, is controlled by his mother, is very much single and philandering, has no artistic feelings of any kind, has no confidence
and has never succeeded at anything. All things unlike Gray - but I see what you mean. You take your characters from a mixture of experience and
imagination - which is in itself influenced by experience. So you probably
have a point, as Alasdair has been a big influence on my life and writing.
As it happens, I too am asthmatic, like Gray, and also have eczema - another
Gray trait. So it's hard to get away from him, even when the traits are
mine.
Dee - Aside from Alasdair Gray, who else would you cite as an influence on your writing?
Rodge - This falls into two clear camps - influences before and after I began
writing.
I hated school and often rebelled against everything we studied in English
lessons simply because it was being taught, but when I was twelve a teacher spotted my interest in literature. He pulled me aside after a lesson and slipped me a copy of 1984 and told me it would change the way I thought
about everything: it did, and made me believe fiction was important. At
university I was taught the great Jewish or American writers - Roth, Isaac
Bashevis Singer, Bellow, DeLillo - again, those books changed the way I saw
the world.
I began writing seriously around 2000, and from then on my main influences
and inspirations were local Scottish authors very much alive and walking
around the city - learning about these people (while I worked in a local
Waterstones and stocked their books), in a very practical way showed me that
normal people could be authors. Until then, these were distant, magical
figures I felt I could not reach. As well as giants like Gray, Galloway,
Kennedy, Kelman, there was nothing more exciting for me than reading new
writers Louise Welsh, Zoe Strachan, Anne Donovan and Rachel Seiffert,
knowing they were actual real young people who lived in Glasgow, that they
had been in similar jobs to me before they got published, done the same
writing courses as me. Of course, if the writing wasn't great then none of
this would have helped, but it was, and it made me determined to be the next
in line. This may seem self-centred, but I so desperately wanted to be an
author that many of my inspirations were things that made me believe I could
be one too.
I still haven't read anything better than 1984.
Dee - I’ve just received the review copy of ‘No Fireworks’ and have managed to read the first twenty or so pages. I will endeavour to read more, over the course of this interview. My initial impressions are certainly favourable. My presumption, from what I’ve read so far, is that you must be Jewish to be able to write with such authority about a dysfunctional Jewish family. Either that or you’re a well-researched Gentile. Assuming the former, can you tell me a little bit about your background. Were you brought up in the strict Orthodox tradition or is your Judaism more secular? How much do you identify with your religion and/or race?
Rodge - Guilty as charged, sir. Jewish indeed. I come from a mixed background. My parents were both brought up as part of the orthodox community of Manchester, but divorce is forbidden in this branch of Judaism. So when they divorced they were forced to become reform - another, more liberal branch of the faith, which has equal rights for women and a more relaxed attitude to marrying out. This suited me more. Both my parents are now happily remarried and they all attend the same reform synagogue I went to as a child. My sister had her bat mitzvah (coming of age) in February 2005.
As regards practising, it wasn't a strict faith. There are many secular-style Jews who eat in gentile restaurants, drive on the Sabbath and don't regularly go to prayers, but still socialise with and support the Jewish community. Lots of bagels, not much prayer. My family were one of these, though both my parents encouraged me to look into my religion and find my own way. I did, living in Israel for a year, but I returned disillusioned. I felt the Jewish people had gone from being the oppressed to being oppressors, disagreed with the behaviour of the Israeli government and felt disappointed by the un-socialist kibbutz I lived on. When I return to Israel next month for my friend’s wedding it will be the first time I've been back since leaving there in 1997. I have tried to put my understanding of modern British Judaism into ‘No Fireworks’. It is my way of trying to deal with my background.
‘How much do you identify with your religion and/or race?’ It is important to know what you are and why - then if you choose to abandon it you understand why. I come from a large family that practises all the festivals and considers Judaism important, but it has been mostly welcoming to those that don't fit into the traditional mould. I think that's the way forward.
I think there is much in Jewish history and culture - as in all religions and cultures - that is satisfying. The Torah, Talmud and many of the great modern Jewish writers (Roth, Bashevis Singer) have contributed an enormous amount to human understanding. However, I struggle with many elements of the Jewish faith. I believe that (for right or wrong) all Jews are perceived through the prism of events in Israel, and because I disagree with so much of that sometimes I find it hard to identify as a Jew at all.
Dee - I’d be interested to hear more about your Israel experience. Did you go there with many illusions?
Rodge - I went there not really knowing what to expect. But it was with a Reform Jewish youth group who had been in the business of preparing me since I was 13, so I don't know why I was so surprised. I'd been for a month in 1994 too, but the year experience - in Jerusalem and the desert was completely different.
Dee - I ask about this, as it is my experience that many British Jews, even ones who would profess to socialism and a liking for pork chops (like my father, for instance) have a very blinkered view of Israel. Should I challenge my father about the atrocities against the Palestinians that are reported in the British media, he is inclined to dispute the facts, claim that the reporting is veering on anti-Semitic and state that Israelis have the right to defend themselves in any way they can, especially given what they suffered during the Holocaust. On the other hand, I have some friends who have worked in Palestinian refugee camps, and they believe, in the light of their experiences, that quite the contrary is true, that the British and American media are pro-Israeli and anti-Arab; and that the atrocities that are reported here are just the tip of the iceberg.
Rodge - This is a very tough one, but my belief is that Primo Levi was right when he said after the Holocaust that it was the Jews responsibility to make sure this did not happen anywhere in the world ever again. It is exactly
because of the suffering Jews have gone through that they should not be persecuting Palestinians. When Palestinian commentators say the West has double standards in the Middle East they are absolutely correct. It is very easy to blame the media, more difficult to take responsibility for your own opinion and criticise both sides when they deserve it. I tend to think that if both sides are complaining about the media coverage then somebody must be doing something right, but I don't doubt what we see on TV is only a fraction of the reality. As regards your father, only you can know how to debate the issues with him - but I feel this situation has a lot in common with other wars in this world, some fought by America, and we need to see all the same way. We do not ask why we are being attacked - we just cry ‘burn the witch’ and stoke up the fire. This attitude is not right, and nothing can be solved with it.
Dee - Regarding the state of the world in general, how is your disposition, optimistic or pessimistic? Do you think that attitudes will eventually change? Can you imagine a time in the future when Arabs and Jews peacefully cohabit in the Holy Land? Will the Catholics and Protestants who live just across the water eventually learn to hang out with each other? Will the Yanks quit illegally invading sovereign countries and accept the lower standard of living that is rightfully theirs?
Rodge - I'll answer all at once, if that's okay. Like many people, I am a rational pessimist but an emotional optimist. There is little in Bush's war to be
optimistic about, but then some possibilities for the eradication of unfair
third world debt and even the tentative beginnings of negotiations between
Israeli's and Palestinians lead me to be at least a little hopeful. When
you have no hope left you might as well go and leap off the end of the world
into space - and I'm not quite ready for that yet! I can imagine a time
where all live in the Holy Land in peace, because I must. My oldest friend
lives in Jerusalem and may start a family soon. I hope for peace for his
children, as for all others. As for Catholics and Protestants, I think a
good start would be for the new Pope to publicly retract past comments on
women, homosexuality and abortion, but that's unlikely. Again though, hope!
As for our American friends, anything is possible when the country is so
evenly split.
Dee - And what about closer to home? What d’you think about the state of politics in Britain? The Labour Party win a ‘historic’ third term in power... back in the old days, under the yoke of Thatcher, you’d have imagined folk would be dancing in the streets about that, eh?
Rodge - Yes, things have changed a lot, and not for the better. I am an addict of British politics and stayed up all night this general election to make sure I didn't miss anything, mainly out of habit, but it's hard to escape that flat feeling that has followed it. The Labour Party seems to be doing its best to turn every last one of us off politics - it's strange to even call it the labour party any more though. I never voted old labour, but find it hard to call a party that privatises, goes to war unnecessarily, charges students to be educated and extends the gap between rich and poor anything but Tory. I’ve just been reading a book called 'The Strange Death Of Tory England' by Geoffrey Wheatcroft recently, which argues the Tories have lost their place forever, benefiting even an unpopular current government - but I think it's simple. they now just go under a different name - labour. it's about time we had representative government in Britain in a parliament that has real power.www.privatelypublishedbooks.com
Dee - You’re just back from your first trip to Israel in eight years. What did you make of it in light of your previous experiences?
Rodge - This one is difficult. When I left in 97 I was very confused and had lots of negative feeling towards Israel - I said I’d only go back under two sets of circumstances - peace, or if my best mate (who was planning to move there) ever got married and wanted me to be best man. Back then, the former seemed more likely. Having just come back from the wedding and spent some time in Jerusalem I know I’m more conflicted than I ever was, but there's nothing in ‘No Fireworks’ I now disagree with, having seen the place anew. It is magical and horrible in equal measure. Also, having taken my girlfriend there this time, I noticed much I had probably switched off to - so many people with guns, getting searched all the time, the ultra-orthodox. Also, driving
through the West Bank was a strange one...you can see the wall they've put
up from so far away. But despite all that, we had a great time out there -
my friend works in a peace movement and his wedding was very liberal, as
much as it can be in that country. And I didn't lose the rings!
Dee - Rounding up now Rodge. First, thanks for doing the interview. It’s only a month now till ‘No Fireworks’ is launched, so good luck with that. You mentioned earlier that you’re working on a 2nd novel. How’s that shaping out? Can you tell us a little about what to expect?
Rodge - the second novel is currently titled ‘Hope For Newborns’. I’m very excited about it...it's a story of two people who meet over the internet, see each other in person for the first time in Prague, and lock themselves in one room there, forever. They’ve seen too much of the world to want any more to do with it. i have about 150 pages or so at the moment, but because it's so different from ‘No Fireworks’ - young people, sex, travel, present tense - I'm taking my time getting the voice right throughout. I’ve been stuck inside the head of a 61-year-old history teacher for three years, and he keeps creeping back in, unwanted!
© Dee Rimbaud & Rodge Glass, 2005
Rodge Glass Links
Rodge Glass's website
read Rodge Glass's short story: Nighthawk CV
read Rodge Glass's short story: Not Much Of A Talker CV
